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Sustainable Imagination | ¿É³ÖÐø»ÃÏë Qiu zhijie Vs Li Zhenhua Interview Interviewer: Li Zhenhua Editor: Jiang Di Li: Let¡¯s talk a bit about your work ¡°The West,¡± when did you start to create this work. Qiu: ¡°The West¡± was begun just about after my nationalist sentiment began to stir. Li: How do you explain it? Qiu: Through my study of calligraphy, since I was young I received a rather orthodox and traditional education, but throughout the 1990s everything that I read was Western philosophy and theory in translation. In 1997 I changed, I started to use a rather international perspective to think about all of the concepts and influences that we were receiving. At that time I started to compare and to prepare different materials. It was in 1999 that I started concentrating on that work. It was just after the Americans bombed the Chinese embassy in Yugoslavia. At that time, seeing university students attacking the American Embassy, many Chinese had different reactions. During the peak of attack, the most grieved and angry ones were the students who had bleached yellow hair. Little Brats. Their heads are all blonde, sitting in protest throughout the entire night with their lit candles. (laughs) The nationalism was zealous, lamenting the accident victims. So watching that kind of worshipper of Western culture, superficially so anyways, I suddenly experienced a turnaround, suddenly becoming taking a fervent, opposite stance. At that time I started to compare, deeply begin work on the project. It was like that. Li: This work is emphasizing a social position? Qiu: Correct. This work was heavily influenced by this critical social event. Of course, on the other hand, at that time before and after 1996 I felt all along like some sort of video art ¡°missionary.¡± I knew about this new media development, and I had a general grasp on the international progress in that arena. On the mainland actually only Feng Mengbo was doing interactive multi-media at that time. But Feng Mengbo only changed the form, he did not change the essence; he used the best software to produce the oldest nature of art, something like Political Pop on the canvas. Then you have me, from a media point of view, I was using this kind of thought: how to use the most common software, most idiotic programs, like Microsoft PowerPoint, to make relatively new content. But in that time, creating in 1999, technological conditions were rough, I was still using a dial up connection, so I didn¡¯t have the means to turn it into an online artwork. In the end it was in a ¡°CD-ROM¡± format that I let people know about my work. Even till today I haven¡¯t truly solved the packaging problem. (laughs) Li: I have the files of your work ¡°The West,¡± a lot of the links are broken. Qiu: Yeah, those links are always problematic, every time move to a new computer host, I have to re-link them. It always reoccurs, because the packaging problem is not very well solved. Li: What do you hope the final shape of this artwork? Qiu: I think that the ideal outcome of this work would be a forum or a web site. That way all kinds of different people could share their opinions. That way it¡¯s no longer the work of just one person. Actually, doing this kind of work satisfies another side of my considerations. Of course, sometimes when I¡¯m making art, I use primarily my imagination. But this kind of work satisfies another aspect of my consideration. The two create a sort of tension. I think that if a person only does strange things that appear all deep and spiritual, he will eventually have no realistic considerations, and the work has no power, pure imagination has no strength. Contrastingly, pure reality without adding any thing often has a great strength. But, that power passes quickly, it never reaches certain heights; it's not something that can surpass people's experiences. That is no different from what a reporter does. If you want something like that, work for television company, play ball, struggle for a broadcasting or some media job, constantly challenge the bottom line of your news censor, that¡¯s the best way to satisfy your moral needs. I do that kind of thing and always feel like it¡¯s a struggle. I¡¯m attracted to two things, sometimes I want to make fun things, other times I want to collect, make some sort of collection of things. About ¡°The West,¡± I think that the most ideal incarnation would be a forum. It needs more interactivity. Currently it¡¯s akin to myself providing a few possible paths, there is definite possibility, simple interactivity. There is one benefit to this way, actually in my gathering process I started doing the editing. I was able to emphasize and stress certain phenomena. Li: What kind of phenomena are you emphasizing? You must have had a purpose at the time? Qiu: I did. One was the quirkiness that people were expressing as they were entering into this period of consciousness, like being finicky. Then, the Chinese art world will often discuss the concept of the ¡°West.¡± The academic world will also often discuss the concept of the ¡°West.¡± In the West, there is often a discussion of ¡°Eastern¡± concepts, books such as ¡°Post-colonialist Theory¡± and ¡°Orientalism¡± appear. It is basically a common topic in classrooms, when people are criticizing post-colonial history they will say the ¡°Orient¡± is a constructed target/opposite, the ¡°Orient¡± is a misinterpretation of the East by Western scholars, the ¡°Orient¡± is this and it is that. Turn it around and it is the same. We also created a ¡°West¡± that plays many different roles in different eras of history. Maybe at one moment they are ¡°invaders,¡± sometimes they are the ¡°common enemy of the Africans, Arabs and Asians¡± or the ¡°Imperialists¡± sometimes we specially singling out the United States and the United Kingdom. Other times they are the ¡°partners in the open-door policy¡± or ¡°strategic cooperation partners¡± and then other times they are ¡°demons¡± or the ¡°angels of democracy,¡± Mr. Science and Mr. Democracy. We are always changing in a changing world, and actually these changes are all related to our hopes. Moreover, the "West" is interpreted differently by different individuals. This difference exists in different times, in different groups, even on the same individual in the same period but in different emotion/physical state. In the same period of time, facing different events, different opinions/information are provided. Therefore a very important part of this work is to help with the self-understanding. When it is showed overseas, it also helps Western people to understand themselves. It is a two-way communication. Actually, the main focus should be on the revealing of how people bring their own desire and prejudice into the description of their study subject, and how biased those opinions are, yet firmly believed, sometimes they could be as weird and as marvelous as an art work. Li: Some academics deliberately give a definition to "West", don't they? What is your opinion on this? It seems that there exists a clear line in historical documents. Qiu: People in different occasions, especially in seminars, no matter what, just like to use "The West". For instance, people who paint traditional Chinese painting came to our place, then they would say, your stuff is all Western. Actually, when we talk about "Eastern" or "Western," when we fiercely debate in those seminars, we all fall into a trap. When we talk like this, it is as if there only exist "West" and "East". We forget where Arab countries are? Where is Africa? Is Latin America "West" or "East"? Therefore, the work "West" in CD-ROM is more like a notebook of mine: I can develop one part of it into an installation, or a performance art. Sometimes I will hyperlink to this work, sometimes I won't. For a period of time, I didn't update it. For example, we made an architectural exhibition at the National Museum of Fine Art. I have made a video installation called "Sculpture from the West--Nirvana". It was a ready-made roman style column, from the construction material market, with "The Amita Sutra" in fluorescent pigment with the Buddhist scripture describing nirvana. In normal light, the words couldn¡¯t be seen, one only saw a roman style column. But when the words could be seen, the column was blurred. Then there was a video clip showing the ruins of the ancient Summer Palace that was an idea of the "West" beginning with the "Ancient Summer Palace.¡± That was an example of an installation made from the scrapbooks of the "West". Taking another example at an exhibition in Hangzhou. I handed out a number of world maps and asked people to cross the "Non Western Country," resulting in a very interesting outcome. Some left Japan in the map, some didn't. At last, a lot of different "Western Maps" were obtained, which demonstrated different imaginations in a geographical image. "West" is in a form of a group of island, because people fill China with blue color. China and India would definitely be crossed. Some people left Russia there, some crossed the part of Russia in Asia¡ some even left America alone. I probably collected over a hundred such maps. So this behavior, an event with audience participation, is related to the "West" CD-Rom. It becomes a junction of one kind of my works: surveys, cultural studies, sociology-related. Li: Do you think the "Crossing Non Western Country" is a product of "post-colonism" ? Qiu: I don't think there is "post-colonism" problem in China since it was never been a colony. Li: I mean the "post-colonism" problems in world history. Qiu: Correct. Therefore China doesn't have this problem. Originally we only have a concept called "land under heaven", but no concept of "international" "West" and "East" fall into the concept of "international." Chinese don't make a distinction here, but "land over heaven." So, "West" as a concept pointing to certain countries or civilization is not Chinese's invention. Of course, in tradition, Chinese have the saying of "South Barbarian, North Barbarian, East Barbarian and West Barbarian". As Chinese culture was so far advanced ahead of others, there was no purpose for comparing them. The geographical location was not a parameter for cultural comparison, thus, not misleading either. The earliest reference of a "westerner" in historical documents is "Queen of the West," probably the head of a friendly tribe living in the Kunlun Mountains. The concept of "West" only emerged when Chinese and Indian civilizations met. In this period "West" specifically referred to India, or Nirvana. In the legend, Laozi went "West" on the back of a gray ox, exited from "Hangu" fortress to the "West". It was said he went to a foreign country to teach their king and people called him "Sakyamuni". A sacred text called "Laozi Becomes a Foreigner" discusses this. It was also an inspiration of some of my works. It was the result of the collision of Buddhism and Taoism. However, today's interpretation of "West" is a mixture. Or the reason that the "West" can become a topic is indeed related to the invasion and colonism. If we had an interpretation to the colony history in our culture, which was completely different from the one we had in the period of colony, we probably could call it "post-colonism." But my personal opinion is even at that time, different people had different understanding, there were "comprador," "Battle against British at Sanyuanli," and "The Boxer Rebellion". Between the extremities of "compradors" and "The Boxers," there exist many different attitudes, which actually extend into today. Therefore, it is only a succeeded state of colony history. It would not be appropriate to call it "post-colonism." We don't have a history of colonies. "Post-colonism" is a typical concept developed in the Middle East, proposed by Arabic scholars, which is enriched by scholars from the Southern Asia with their experiences. It doesn't exist in China. There are some similar topics, but essentially different. Li: I raised this question because you talked about the Maps. It is probably we haven't experienced "colonism", no colonial history--therefore our concept of "colonism" is beyond the imagination. Yes, so including what you have mentioned, how we perceive Japan. It is "West", but not really "West". Have you made the distinction in your work, for example, in which time how the "West" looks. How can we distinguish the "West" geographically and regionally? Qiu: I did. In its current status, this work has a tree structure. Exploring from the homepage, there are categories like "What is West", "Where is West", "The Good West" "The Bad West". Within "Where is West" and "What is West", it is categorized by types. For example, when we talk about "West", our "bad" impressions could be "violent", "greedy"; "good" could be "wealthy", "democratic" and "scientific." Grouped by concepts. When we think of "West", which vocabularies popped to mind? Grouped by stages, by periods, for example, from the age of Buddhism to Christianity, from Matteo Ricci's time to "The Boxer Rebellion," to the time when China started to build railways. In the 50's, everyone was required to learn Russian dance, was named with a Russian name. To 70's and 80's, Wen Shuke talked in her work about purchasing a pair of jeans. Her folks got worried, thinking she was about becoming a bad girl. That was the time when all she dreamed of was a pair of jeans. Now, the kids play with stateboards, and bleach their hair, it is another time. Actually, it was all started by my passion for making a newsreel. At that time I wanted badly to make an intellectual newsreel, with observation, then notes, collecting materials, with descriptions and critiques. Then it becomes this. It was an urge to make a newsreel. But, then, I realized by my character, I couldn¡¯t make any newsreel. Once I started, I would become participant. I believe if I started a newsreel about peasant labors, I would become a lawyer to protect their rights. Therefore I forced myself to be out of the scene, making it more of an editing work. How "West" is presented was a choice by elimination of choices. Li: You used PowerPoint, presentation software. What does this non-linear model bring to your work? Qiu: First, as in a non-linear model, you can free yourself from arranging the time order, which is actually choosing not to take certain responsibility. By avoiding this aspect of editing. You leave this responsibility to your audience; you won't violate their wills. To certain extent, you don't arrange your audience to listen to one opinion, then another, or first negative then positive, which may result different conclusion. "West" puts all possibilities side by side, which also indicates my own confusion. One advantage is that I can avoid jumping into a conclusion too quickly, so keep a more neutral perspective. Although Powerpoint can only realize very limited interactivities, it is less forcible than a linearly arranged, well presented form. The second advantage is the extensibility to the work. It is very easy to edit this media. Once I have new materials, new observations, I will insert to it, making the file bigger and bigger. At that time, DVD and DVD burners were uncommon, I was worried what if this file grew out of a CD-ROM? Would I need to take the hard drive to exhibitions? It was a concern at that time. It was the second advantage, brought by the technology I used. The third one is that the combination of images and text are completely different from the subtitle in a newsreel. The text is not something just flashes off the screen, but can be considered and reconsidered. The only functionality of Powerpoint which is not well used is playing audio. I used a good amount of video in the work. The video part was well done, but the audio part was fairly bad. I totally gave up the control of sound. Of course, it is also because of my whole work which doesn't have a strong emotional emphasis. So, "West" is more like a forum. As a forum, the amount of information collected is definitely limited by its format as a CD-ROM, it must be put online. It was the product of that time. If I could make it again today, of course I will continue the work, because I set up a website now, with very big storage. I will definitely turn "West" into an online project. Li: It has been about 8 years, why is it not turned into an online project? Qiu: It has been 8 years since it was first showed in ICA, London. The first 3 years, it was updated, but in the last 5 was not, even though my understanding to this question goes deeper. In one sense, "Asian Time is directly related to it. It is the satisfaction to my care for social anthropology and sociology, not unlike "West". From my work "Pingpang" in 1996, to "The West" in 1999, to the current work "Asian Time", a video of this scale, they are all aligned, including my current work, which is probably largely replaced by teaching. I make it into some teaching projects, or for example, I wrote the column--"Text from the bottom"--for a "SOHO Tabloid", then I led the students to survey on paintings with "Tibet" scheme. Besides Western people's imagination of Tibet, Chinese as well have imagination of Shangri-La. This survey, like "West," is a deconstruction of our imagination. Because everyone tends to think like this: he/she has been living in this imagination, as living too long in it, it becomes a truth. When he/she was challenged with different opinions, it is possibility that he/she starts thinking differently, making thousands of comments, amazed by the diversity of human feeling, sensibilities and experiences. I believe for most people who are not bully, he/she won't immediately respond "nonsense!" If the other person truly presents them with many facts, he/she would think why this person would think that way. Therefore, some part of the urge was replaced by new work, for instance, teaching. For example, making "Asian Time" took two to three years, two years more accurately. The filming took 2 years. Editing and cutting are still going on. The teaching work already lasts for 3 years. So, the actual time was from 1999 to 2003. That's it. I started teaching at the China Academy of Art in 2003. I started filming "Asian Time" in 2002. Since I started teaching, my passion for this kind of work was replaced by more detailed projects such as teaching students to survey, "The Survey of Zhongshan Park", etc. I think if I put it online, it would grow all by itself, which may also leads to some nonsense, resulting in the website being censored. Anything is possible. Li: You mentioned earlier that in this work, you returned the power to the audience, we were constructing a information system providing information through different indexes. Why did you make only one such work? Why you didn't use this model in our succeeding works? Or is this model unsuitable for you? Qiu: I don't know why I didn't do it again. It may because I keep telling myself this work is not finished. It can be worked on and on. So no other similar works. It is only part of the reason. Actually, later I did a "social portraits" in a courtyard. There were roman style columns, and lions, which were all linked to this work. This work is more like a notebook, if published without any judgment, it is flat, just a pile of photos. Therefore it can be seen as an urge expressed by this kind of works, a naive urge to present a certain event. It was supposed to be with both description and critiques, but the critiques were left out. And, I was anti-art at this time. The reason that I shot the photos like writing to a bulletin board, was largely because the spread of "conceptual photography" in China, which made me sick. At that time, 1993 and 1994, I started using photograph as a media to do my work in Hangzhou. It was because there was no place to exhibit installation works and behavior art. I had to use photo. I didn't know Cindy Sherman, or Jeff Wall at that time; it was only because I didn't have other means, just made it up. Those best selling works such as "Tattoo-No" and others were all taken in 1994 in Hangzhou. I was forced to use photography without knowing what photography was. Around 1999, actually it was after 1999, photography became a trend. All of them started to point and click, point and click, then ¡°Photoshop¡± it, this annoyed me. I started becoming against art. I thought it was not bad if one can shot like a reporter, be a calm observer to the society. Because meanwhile, many people were providing their "intriguing thoughts" to society, they started to critique their own work. In fact, their "thoughts" were not "intriguing" at all, but filled with superficial observation, less interesting than a more plain observation from a realistic angle. The latter at least has some value as a historical reference, I don't know if it has any value as an art work, may not have any. Because I was anti-art at that time, annoyed by art. At least, it was real. Li: Is that more realistic to you? Qiu: For a certain period of time, yes. Li: This work of yours gives me an impression that it is related to your later work "Post-Sensitivity." But I am not sure. Qiu: Actually they are about the same time. Because "Post-Sensitivity" was also during this period, it lasted until 2005 when those people changed the name to "United Scenes." I don't know what's happened to it later, since nobody uses this name anymore. We can say as people participated in "Post-Sensitivity" that became full-fledged, they started to pursue their own directions. "Post-Sensitivity" was a ladder that provided them with the possibility to do something else. To be fair, they did what they wanted to do at that time, now they shifted their interests to somewhere else. The main work of "Post-Sensitivity" was done from 1999 to 2003. That was the period when people focused on the work, and worked hard together. Look, "West" shows a special care to the society, whereas "Post-Sensitivity", in other people's eyes, is often misinterpreted with a strong anti-society tendency. And images of the very personal, very extreme were very shocking and very weird. From the surface, the two are opposite of each other. It is the first time that I have ever heard that people think they are related. I'd rather like to hear your understanding of this. Li: I think it is because of the multi-threads. Both have many threads, uncontrollable. That's just my gut feeling. Qiu: "Post-Sensitivity" evolved from my annoyance to the conceptual art, a very clear dislike for concepts. I was indeed thinking of how to make that work into an installation. I had really spent some thoughts on it, and talked with engineers exploring the possibility. A shadow is cast on the floor. When you reach that spot, it is as if you push a button. It was all possible, but very complicated. I was thinking about that. If it was turned into an object, it was more of a physical experience. You made a good point, the uncontrollability. "Post-Sensitivity" emphasized on a physical scene, while "West" is a conceptual scene. Our physical scene came from the objection to the art with standard concept, it was turned to against to the rigid exhibition system in 2001, then the theatrical tendency appeared. After that it was anti-individualism, setting up a few game rules against individualism, at the same to stress on the theatrical effect. That was what we referred as the on-spot feeling--it was a mixture, it was unpredictable. Later we reached the point of "United Scenes". I feel the problem of "United Scenes" is this: it was never based on any deeper theory, was more of a get-together with friends. As it went on, every person had his/her own problem, his/her own purpose. It was impossible to unite everything with one or two rules. Thus there were more fouls in "United Scenes" than in "Post-Sensitivity". Until the Guangzhou Biennale, "United Scenes" was dead because everybody gave up on it. I am not sure if Shiqing fouled, but Liu Ding definitely did, Zhang Hui refused to play along. I believe I didn't give up. Because I strictly followed the rules we decided on: 8 hours, with time unit, complete a work within this time unit. I didn't foul, but I made my work out of the scene. It was more like a piece of work for myself. Strictly speaking, that work was not showed. Therefore, after that event, I was thinking about "the scene". It must become a "historical scene". It should not rest at the physical level, but reach the ideological level. If it was turned into historical scene, it would be in accord with "West". "The West" would nearly have resulted in other happenings. It was first exhibited in ICA "Beijing in London" curated by Karen Smith and Wu Meichun. It was the first time shown overseas. It was shown later in my solo exhibition in New York. Then the biennale in St. Paul. However, the most interesting experience was the participation of an anthropology seminar organized by Umberto Eco, the famous Italian semiologist. It was a multi-cultural seminar, with many invited scholars working in the area of anthropology to Italy. Zhao Dingyang (philosopher), Wang Mingming (anthropologist) and I created a group called "Perception and Delusion". We planned to make an experimental newsreel, called "New Journey to the West", applied for funding from the EU. It was probably "The West" in action. I would play the Monkey, Wang Mingming the Pig, and Zhao Dingyang that Monk, then we three would travel in Europe with a trunk. That trunk's name would be Tang Seng (the monk). Then we would paddle the objects in the trunk in the journey at the same time purchase more, colleting things in the trunk. There were more detailed plans including hiring a survey company to poll on the most influential concepts in China. The ten most influential concepts and ten most influential persons, etc. Those could be directly put into the work of "West". If it were done, for example hiring survey company, or publishing online, it would be the historical scene I am talking about. Unfortunately it was an unaccomplished plan. The French Government was willing to pay, but restricted the travel to 10 French cities. We selected 10 cities in Europe, mapping to the cities in "the Journey to the West", for example, Auschwitz was the "White Skeleton Cave"; Manchester, the origin of textile industry during the Industrial Revolution, "Spider Cave"; Amsterdam "The Country of Women"; Florence, an important place in Renaissance, "Violet Country"; The result was that the EU wouldn't sponsor the project; the French government did, but in condition of choosing 10 cities within France. If we accepted it, we would feel violated. So the plan was tabled. We also designed many artworks in situ similar to "Post-Sensitivity." For instance, Wang Mingming could disguise himself a beggar, knocking on people's door, by saying "I am a Chinese. My wallet and passport were picked. I am hungry. Give me food! Give me money!" Then we would make some candid snapshots. There were some things really similar to that. Li: You are saying it looks like many small ideas, but by overview, they are all included in a bigger one, which is not a very clearly conscious shape, is that right? Qiu: Correct. Li: This work is very important to my research of "The Multi-media Art in China since 1989". Because after 1989's "Wall" event, the end of the Cold War, "East" and "West" became a hot topic. Many scholars, from all areas of research, and artists were discussing this question. I think it was the end of this topic. Qiu: The reason I didn't continue the development of this CD-ROM is that I had new ideas. Look, there is a book project in my computer. I have already published a few¡ those are published. Here are some of my thoughts on creation, and curator's interview, my articles about artists. One of the book projects called "West". Here is the outline of the book, how this book would be. It includes multiple choice, it¡¯s an interactive book. It also extends to this, including the explanation of "Foreign", "West", "Out" in dictionaries, missionary architecture and Chinese churches. Then, all kind of courses¡ I am collecting images for this book. It is probably why I stopped the CD-ROM, want to turn it into a book. It was a kind of writing, interactive writing. In fact, we should have one thing, a forum, and a printed version, a magazine, or a book to arrange the materials, making it something worth chewing on. Li: But since I didn't finish my last sentence, I was saying after 2000, it seems that globalization became especially hot. So do you think it is meaningful to keep talking about the "West"? Or let's say reconsider this question, after 8 years, what's the value of reconsidering it? Qiu: I don't think it is a past tense. I need to go deeper, and in more detail. We can say "Asian Time" is a deeper exploration of "West". Because when I talked about time in the scope of Asian using the Christian Gregorian calendar, it plays the role of "West". "The West", this interactive work presents a general idea, which is more abstract. This generalization covers rich facts underneath, whereas "Asian Time," to a certain degree, reveals the idea of different individuals. My own work is based on the coordination of Western civilizations, shouldering a responsibility of explaining our own culture. It is also a very important work to do a "self-autopsy." The calligraphy work I did, the photographs of practicing calligraphy are all related to self-examination and self-understanding. Because of our misinterpretation and an imagined "West," we also construct misinterpretations and imagine things of our own. If we tab the "West" with scientific, democratic, with better ships and cannons, and correspondingly tab the "East" with mystery, then start promoting the Yiching, Fengshui and Taiji. Therefore it is a process of synchronization, and how do we picture ourselves. "Globalization" is a very crude word. Globalization for what? Political Globalization or Economical Globalization? Similar to "West", it must in put into a concrete contact for discussion. Taking the example of calendar, it means different things to different people, and it was reconstructed in a different context. Of course people still can make a work about "globalization". I think "West" still has its value, this topic is still ongoing. Look at my blog, my blog has many visitors, 1000 visits per day, but not many people leave comments. But once the one about American visa was posted, 4 comments were made instantly. It is still a very sensitive topic, and invites many discussions. Because it is so difficult to pass. Li: Which means you believe imagination still exists, or, people still react that way when they encounter the problems in daily life? Qiu: Globalization will never really happen. We still have difficulty applying for American visas. So that kind of problem will still exist in the future. And as Christmas becomes more accepted, that will also be a problem. Li: So is it possible to shrink down Western consciousness? To turn it into a substitute for violence? Qiu: To some people yes, but for others, no. For example, when the Shanghai government uses the Bund to apply for a UNESCO World's Heritage title, they must not think so. They are truly proud of the Bund, because there is a history there. Li: But the architecture on the Bund, is it not a remainder from colonial times? Qiu: It is. Recognizing it as part of history, even a part that one can be proud of, is indeed a change in our frame of mind. Li: Isn't there similar problem in Chinese history? For example, the Yuan dynasty by Meng nation, some people don't think it should be included in Chinese history, which is not a fair viewpoint. Qiu: Foreign invasions into China happened countless times in history. There are only two outcomes. One is the mixing of the bloodline, like "Five nations in mainland". Chinese don't value bloodlines very much. Our "Poet Saint" Li Bai is not a pure Chinese. We distinguish our people by "education," basically if the foreigners believe in Confucius, they were considered Chinese. Mongolians accepted Confucius, therefore they became an orthodox dynasty, the same thing with the Qing Dynasty. They were accepted because they respected and believed in Confucius, otherwise they would have been driven out. Li: In this case, if one day Western people believe in Confucius, they will be...? Qiu: ¡accepted as our people. Maybe! Till this point the ¡°East¡± the ¡°West¡± speaking strictly in racial terms, of course is rather shallow. Because Chinese people just don¡¯t talk about the concept of nationalism. From a cultural aspect, actually from a cultural aspect it is a rather simple differentiation. And the religious differentiation is actually also rather effective. It¡¯s just that even though Confucianism is not a religion, but Christianity, Islam, all is because of a cultural conflict on behalf of religion. Religion is in diametrical opposition to culture. The problem today is of course very serious, we could even say more serious that in 1999. But for me personally perhaps that¡¯s not the case. For people in the Middle East, the problem is too serious, especially after 911. So actually I also have the work on 911 ¡°World Trade Center Sky Burial Mound,¡± actually of that could be considered as being linked to something. Its most essential function is in my creations, in my creations there is always some kind of thing that is playing the part of the laptop computer. You can take out that section and tackle this exhibition, deal with this event. So, ¡°The West¡± is one of those things, on the topic of calligraphy, perhaps that¡¯s another thing. Li: I don¡¯t think that it entirely is, from my perspective, ¡°The West¡± is the most interesting work from among your cannon. But perhaps what I say is the best compared to what you say is the most uncontrollable thing by you, the most able to reflect reality, perhaps most relative. And then also with different kinds of completely interactive threads, it can construct many kinds of relationships with viewers, so it¡¯s the most interesting. Also, what makes it interesting is that it uses the most basic software to achieve its interactivity. Actually, what is interactivity? I think that in this work it is explained suddenly very clearly, interactivity can be very simple. And that can bring down our doorbell, or to say, how will others do this kind of informational exchange and comparison. I think it achieves the most basic mode of interaction. Qiu: There are very few interactive works on the Internet. Most of the works can only be clicked, but nothing else. The most important is that "The West" is not a strict tree-structure. It doesn't require returning to the root before exploring to the next branch. The tree-structure has been developed into a network structure. So you don't need to return to where you came from. I think this is the key point: it can be turned into a world, paralleling to the real one. People can enter. It¡¯s pity that the content and angles aren¡¯t rich enough. But this can be solved by putting the work online.
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