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Sustainable Imagination | ¿É³ÖÐø»ÃÏë Cao Kai Vs Li Zhenhua Interview Interviewer: Li Zhenhua Editor: Jiang Di Li: When did you start creating multimedia works? Could you please give a brief account? Cao: I had been working at Television Center since graduating from art school in 1992, where I had close contact with media. However, it was relatively late when I started creating contemporary multimedia work. The time I got involved with contemporary art-the first time I participated in a contemporary art exhibition-was in 1995, while my first video installation work was completed in 1998, that was 3 years later. During those 3 years, I focused mainly on easel painting, occasionally some small-scale installations, which were in a language extended from the easel painting, as I was still creating with two-dimensional thought. Truthfully, my easel painting was not done strictly in the sense of traditional easel painting, but incorporated all types of mixed materials; this was a result of influences from a Nanjing local contemporary art group. Why did I conceive of creating a multimedia work in 1998? The idea was actually triggered by the exhibition space. It was for my second solo exhibition, the location was on the ruins of Summer Palace of the Southern Tang Dynasty. While I was inspecting the location, I felt a certain gloomy and ghostly atmosphere that could be expressed through audio visual materials, thus my first video installation was conceived "In the West Tower All Alone" (a verse from one of contemporary emperor's poems). Prior to this, since I was working in the multimedia department at a television broadcasting station, and had easy access to their professional audio video equipment and computers, some artists already had already begun asking for my help their multimedia works. I had heard vaguely of video art at the time, but had no further knowledge or understanding of its origin, its history, important artists or art works; I had no clear picture at all. I was restricted by my location in Nanjing as well; there was rarely any access to such resources from overseas. I remember the first two related articles I had read were published in "Jiansu Pictorial." The first article was translated by Wu Weichun and the other was translated and edited by Daozi, both were related to video art. The information about multimedia was truly scarce back then. Only upon looking back and examining the history of Chinese video art did I realize that Qiu Zhijie and others had already done a great amount of work to accelerate the process. But I wasn¡¯t in contact with them then, but rather worked in a relatively independent environment. Li: I saw your work "2069" in 2001. From "2069" to "The Summer of 69", to "Made in 68," I find something very appealing to me-the creation of political metaphors through using and sampling still 3D images taken from society image (as in "Made in 68") made into collage, or photomontage. Could you talk about how this transformation was accomplished? Cao: "2069" was finished around spring of 2001. But in my opinion it is an unfinished work, I actually think it¡¯s impossible to finish it, and it¡¯s a failure as well. That is due to my technical limitations and budget restrictions; I couldn't control such a big production. I began in the latter half of year 2000 and continued until spring of 2001, it was a struggle to finish a 3-minute version. I was actually embarrassed to show the result to anyone. From a production standpoint, it was not a success, but its conceptual framework indicated a turning point for my creative works: I started to reinterpret political events and history through images, emphasizing a re-visitation and re-interpretation of modern and contemporary history. It became a direction for my philosophy and creation, which persisted through the next 5 years' work, until the appearance of "Made in 68." In fact, I am still progressing on this path; I¡¯m still in the process. In 2002, I made 2 pieces of work, one was "The Summer of 69", the other "International Song". The latter was rarely shown in exhibition on the mainland, whereas the former was extensively exhibited as my representative work of that period. Both works are photomontage; first I began sampling images, then began organizing them with non-linear techniques. It was a ready-made work built on the re-arrangement of these finished images. From a certain angle, you could view this as a dynamic collage, a process of re-assembling video images. Therefore, "2069" is by a completely different technique. I wished to create a combination of purely three dimensions and realistic footage of real people, but I realized it was beyond my personal creative control. So I started thinking backwards: if I couldn't make a work with completely original images, why not just borrow all of my images? The result was the creation of "The Summer of 69" and "International Song," both in the style of borrowing old news reports. Li: Apparently your desire to create with original images is fully illustrated in "Made in 68": the merging of the 3D image of a bridge with natural scenery. How did you make it possible? Cao: After the completion of the two works mentioned above, I wasn¡¯t creating much in the 2 following years: "China Channel" in 2003 and nothing in 2004. You could say I had reached my plateau. I actually felt the need to re-arrange my thoughts during those two years. If I was going to choose digital multimedia as my primary means of expression, I would have to recharge myself with the necessary specialized knowledge. It was a period of broadly reading, extensively thinking and intense writing. In those 2 years, I finished book "The Pre-history of the Digital Image," roughly 100,000 words, along with other related academic papers. Likewise, I curated some independent film screenings, the most prominent being ¡°China¡¯s Annual Independent Video Exhibition.¡± I extended my reach into to the history of non-narrative film, to establish a greater personal axis of coordination for basic structural theories. The whole process was an important supply to my later creative work, and re-structuring of my knowledge. When I started creating again, because I had thoroughly examined the history of experimental film, video art and computer graphics, I started to observe the new media age with a new perspective, a bird¡¯s eye view. My objective was thus to locate myself in the current historical setting. Relatively speaking, I saw my current and future co-ordinations clearly. My completed work would realize a clear trajectory between these two points. This gives a completely different feeling when comparing to the works created through sheer impulse, by instinct or through accidental inspirations. Therefore it can be seen as a fundamental change in the conceptual and linguistic level when I created "Made in 68" Except for the general schema, all other aspects were altered. One was using 3D modeling to create original image. From an operations angle, I no longer did everything by myself, for the 3D modeling, rendering, synthesis, as well as photographer and director I hired a team that included professionals. This allowed me to focus more on the visualization of the concept, spend more time on contemplation, achieving the integrity of the work, instead of being caught up by one or two technical details and having to interrupt the process to solve technical problems. Although I no longer personally operated the machinery to produce the work, the skills I have learned from years of detailed work helped me to communicate smoothly with my collaborators and to reasonably choose the proper techniques, since I understand every single detail of each step in the process. The creation of "Made in 68," from a technical perspective, I think it is the best an individual studio could achieve. In the least, it is the greatest feeling of precision that I¡¯ve had to date. Li: You pay special concern to the historical changes of political society in your works. What are some of the historical traces in your work? Cao: Since childhood, I was deeply interested in politics and history. Both philosophical and historical literature comprised my daily reading list, as a hobby, and for recreation. Although I have never studied politics and history as an academic, the influence and accumulation of related knowledge after years of reading is considerable. It is also an integral component in my knowledge framework. Nevertheless, the focus of my interest is constantly changing. At the earliest, like most people, I was interested in wars, major historical events, people and the society they lived in during the critical periods of change, etc. But later my interest shifted from the larger overview to the minute--I was drawn to the forgotten and often ignored details in history. Beginning with some known remnants, and according to my own analysis, reasoning and imagination, I started to re-construct and visualize the minute details lost in history that seemed undiscoverable. At the same time, this visualization is a process teeming with transfiguration and impressionistic flair. Another aspect is to tailor, re-assemble seemingly non-related historical events and characters to result in new meanings and interpretations. Li: If politics is clearly employed as a symbolic element in "The Summer of 69" and "2069,¡± in "Made in 68" it becomes a metaphor of some kind. What do you think of this obscure symbolization of politics? Does it conflict with your explanation of the problem? Does it help advance the expressive nature of your work? Cao: To our Chinese contemporary artists born during late 60's and early 70's, the influence of politics is still very deep. To the generation before us--born in late 50s and 60's--it was a critical and completely engrossing. Therefore in works of this generation you can find much direct use of political symbols. For example, Wang Guangyi's "Great Criticism" borrows directly from symbols on propaganda posters. In fact the Political Pop of the early 90's had already reached a certain height as a painting medium. Political Pop ironically employed political symbols of Chinese communist movements, for example through different interpretations of Mao's portrait. Since then this style had extended to other contemporary art forms: installation, performance art, multimedia, etc. Until recently, this style of is use hasn¡¯t ceased. But the way that these symbols are used is becoming more and more obscure. For example, recently I saw Yin Zhaoyang's Mao series. His way of expression is completely different from earlier generation of Political Pop artists; he uses his own emotions and understanding that are very personal. In accordance to this personal complex, his use seems implicit and obscure. The use of political symbols in Chinese contemporary art, I think, has undergone a transformation from directness to obscurity. Lately I have been wondering, why is that? I believe that most likely it is because the first group of Political Pop artists had a moment where they were directly facing the memory and fading influence of political symbols. Their exposure was also a kind of collective behavior that they faced directly, face-to-face, which was one chapter in their personal history. Li: Do you mean "experience"? Cao: Yes, absolutely a personal experience. They have such concrete memories from these personal experiences. Whereas for my generation these memories are only fading images in one¡¯s memory, remnants of obscure, low-resolution images. Greater understanding came afterwards through various writing, oral histories passed down from the elder generations, and the inertia in our living environments and spaces where we can still feel a certain inheritance, a political inheritance, and remnants of a great political age. This is something I personally feel. Politics are ubiquitous in our daily life, albeit undercover. I feel this is similar to art works; politics are also obscured in the images themselves. This is exactly what I care about: the elements under cover, like the Nanjing Bridge in "Made in 68". My current studio is less than 10 km from the Nanjing Bridge; it is literally a part of my daily life and my working space, but it is still a very important thoroughfare in Nanjing, my city. Thus when I am faced with this historical heritage from the "Political Era", my re-interpretation is very different from in the past. In one of my articles, I pointed out that as its practical function as a bridge decreases, its symbolic aesthetics of an era are increased and its implication as a political and cultural remnant become more interesting. These two processes are in exactly the opposite direction. I found a point to break in through searching for an exotic feeling in a familiar image, some unfamiliar scenery. So I placed it in wastelands, deserts, in a world of ice and snow, even put it into the sea with melting icebergs-through all kinds of natural sceneries, I was primarily seeking a feeling of newness. Li: What influence did technology have on your creative production? When unfamiliarity is expressed through virtual 3D imaging, is it possible that as direct an interactive relationship is impossible? Cao: Technology and art should have an interactive relationship. Quite a few artists are are contemptuous of technology, believing that concept takes precedent over all, or that technical portions can be completed by "hiring" or "outsourcing" to related sectors in society. On the opposite side, another tendency is "tech-worship," those who think that new technologies lead to the breakthrough of new concepts. This idea is inclined to be attract the younger generation of artists and has an enormous market. I think both are dangerous, even though they lean in different directions. The former neglects reactive forces of new technologies in the process of art creation, and unilaterally emphasizes the creative subject, making it easy to lose control during the visualization process. The latter is the ¡°putting the horse before the cart¡± phenomenon, in the creative process over emphasizing the technical abilities may result in too much stress on the shape of the work, weakening the conceptual integrity of the work. 3D imaging is already a mature means of artistic expression, and relatively speaking, it requires a higher level of technical skill. The techniques can re-create a realistic scene, as well as imaginary ones, expressing surrealistic ideas. The unfamiliarity expressed in my work is expressed through these methods. Li: If l didn¡¯t understand the political conditions, or if it were a time when political elements weren¡¯t unique I would say that in "Made in 68" implies a certain absurdist utopia, muddled with some futuristic visual elements. Does it imply that this once practical and monumental building, with its strong political implications, will become a parable for natural landscapes and ruins in our future landscape of? Cao: As a bridge, it is inherently an architectural construction. I can interpret it as a physical building with certain memories attached to it, at the same time, a form with unique aesthetic characteristics of its era. Every building is representative of its era; this is especially true for the Nanjing Bridge. The architectural style is an adaptation of the traditional Chinese arch bridge, an extremely long arch bridge. The details reveal even more: the three red flags on the bridge tower, the carved ornamentation on the railing, the lighting, etc., all make it look obsolete. In retrospect, we could trace back its history to the time when it was built but what if we look forward, we could see the future and imagine the many possibilities. In my plan for my coming works I will present the diversity, although this work only explores the unfamiliarity of the scenery in the image. This is my main idea. Parable is expanding on the basic concept; this concept is a continuation of the value and significance of architectural remnants. Li: This is also a topic that I am very interested in. Earlier we talked about politics, historical buildings and others issues, but if we leave those out and only talked about the symbolism in the "bridge," I think it has a very special meaning by itself. If we were to consider it more abstractly, in your opinion, its path leading to the future and talking about his shape in the future, what would it be like exactly? Cao: When we talk about a "bridge," it has its own history¡ªthe history of the bridge; and is a practical piece of architecture, perhaps it is mentioned in architectural history; the third possibility is that it becomes art history, since it has its own aesthetic qualities, art historians should pay attention to it. Next would be a more general history, for instance, war history--you must have seen a war film called "Guihe Bridge," where many historical events were related to bridges: the Lugou Bridge skirmish, the Luding Bridge battle, etc. When we take the implied meaning of the bridge and derive a certain meaning from it, it will take on all kinds of historical elements and events that are related. Therefore, what the bridge symbolizes here is not of utter importance, what I¡¯m more interested in is its past and its future. *** Li: The bridge still has a certain feeling--it¡¯s a path ¡°from here to there¡± that stops in the middle. So, how exactly did you design the ¡°Here¡± to ¡°there¡±? Speaking of time, how do these two points relate to your individual experience? Cao: That¡¯s a rather poetic question. Li: It¡¯s only ¡°conjecture.¡± Cao: My thinking actually hasn¡¯t really made it to that point, that question is a little too academic. But actually, that is not in contradiction, we can all conjecture we are in an objective status, that we can find many metaphorical meanings in the work, many academic narrative names, I think that all of that could be possible. That kind of academic poeticism and every person¡¯s individual experience has an incredibly strong relationship. We were just talking about the ¡°here¡± and the ¡°there¡± phenomenon, if we used poems to explain, perhaps we could understand each person¡¯s coordinates, these two coordinates can be linked together, they can also be split apart. In 2001 I did an installation work on Guilin¡¯s Lijiang River, it was called ¡°Breaking the Bridge.¡± On the bank of the river I built a bridge in the direction of the river, but I only completed half of it. It was intended to have a half-bridge feeling, the other half would have to be imagined, perhaps it was broken off or sunk in the river. That was a poetic work, like an ancient poem. The bridge essentially was something usurped by culture the most, not used with words like ¡°broken,¡± but for ¡°communications¡± ¡°exchange.¡± All were indicating rather clear concepts, but what I was trying to say here wasn¡¯t too obvious. I think, that the meaning of the bridge itself, its usefulness, and because of this a few cultural deritives. Li: Here and there, outside from the bridge, are there any other meanings? Is it obliging a materialistic space? The omission of ¡°there¡± has what effects on the work? Cao: That kind of meaning should be derived from the viewers. As for the work itself, I only provided a path, the design and placement should be appreciated by each person individually, and here the basics of understanding the definition of the work. At the same time, everyone¡¯s interpretation of the two spaces is different, the field and the material space created by this work are broader. Li: In your virtual spaces no people appear, there is no life. For the bridge in its environment there is initially an environment. Assuming humans had no life, these works would have life, those objects that have life, material objects and their existence in a natural environment change and have no overstep. Is this work about a metaphor of time? Cao: Because time is something created by humans. The bridge, as an existing piece of architecture, should have had life from the beginning. Architecture, humans, environment, they create an essential factor of the construction of the scenery. But in my scenes there never appears humans, but actually, I most importantly want to stress the lifelikeness of the bridge, the relationship between the architecture and natural cycle of life and death, it is a mutual dependency. People are actually already changing their haves and have nots, these back and forthisms are not as good as speaking frankly. The earliest version of this work had sound, something like natural noises, but after putting it through the computer and finishing it we took the sound out. There was one time when we watched the video and forgot to put the sound on, the result was I felt the silent version was easier to help the viewer enter into the surroundings, so we took the sound out directly. That had its own reasoning. I felt that it was unnecessary, I though it should be more unadulterated, a more simple canvas, using a solidifying, static composition to explain problems. In that state, you become very sensitive to time. Our inspiration comes from time, most of that comes from the heart, I simply wanted to use the work to produce a place where people could enter that meditative state, feel that sensitivity towards time. Here, time is not only a metaphor for the main character (ego) and the non-ego, more important is that time will produce a momentary pause, the stopping of time, that is what we commonly know as---¡°eternity.
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